A bit of a roundup, because there’s so much out there.
In April 2020, an optimistic Gov. Greg Abbott announced at the Texas Capitol that he would soon take initial steps to allow businesses to reopen during the coronavirus pandemic.
The loosening of restrictions, his team said, would be informed by a statewide “strike force,” composed of business leaders and four medical experts who would advise the governor on a safe, phased plan.
“Every recommendation, every action by the governor will be informed and based on hard data and the expertise of our chief medical advisers,” James Huffines, a lobbyist who Abbott named as chair of the strike force, said at the time. “Everything we do will be medically sound. These nationally recognized advisers are leading experts in their fields and we will rely on their knowledge and expertise every step of the way.”
Since then, Texas has suffered through two major case surges and thousands of deaths. Abbott imposed a mask order in July, and vaccine distribution has begun to give residents a reason for hope. On Tuesday, Abbott made waves again by announcing the repeal of his mask order and declaring “it is now time to open Texas 100%.”
This time, however, Abbott’s team of medical advisers appeared to play a minimal role in the decision. Three of the four said on Wednesday that Abbott did not directly consult with them prior to the drastic shift in policy. The fourth said he couldn’t say whether the move was a good idea.
One such adviser expressed overt reservations about the move.
“I don’t think this is the right time,” Dr. Mark McClellan, a former commissioner of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and director of the Duke-Margolis Center for Health Policy at Duke University, said in a statement. “Texas has been making some real progress, but it’s too soon for full reopening and to stop masking around others.”
McClellan said that he was “not consulted before the announcement.”
Hey, remember the Strike Force? Yeah, no, nobody does. Either you’re going to tell Greg Abbott what he wants to hear, or he won’t listen. What’s the point?
Mayors in some of Texas’ biggest cities announced that they will still mandate the use of masks in municipal buildings, even after the statewide mask order ends next week.
Austin, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and El Paso’s leaders announced Wednesday and Thursday that masks will be required to enter city-owned indoor spaces like libraries, police and fire department headquarters, convention centers and transportation hubs.
“I am going to issue an order mandating masks at all city-owned buildings. We have to do what we are legally allowed to do to get people to wear masks,” Dallas Mayor Eric Johnson said on Twitter Thursday morning. “We also still need to practice social distancing. And we still need to avoid taking unnecessary risks. The pandemic is not over.”
[…]
In an email, Abbott spokesperson Renae Eze confirmed that cities are allowed to take this measure “just like private companies can with their property.”
I’m sure he’ll get the Legislature right on that, though.
Speaking of private companies, Texas businesses must decide whether to require face masks. Some worry they could lose customers either way.
“I do feel that we’ll probably lose guests based on whatever decision we do make, but I guess that’s just part of the environment that we are in now,” said Jessica Johnson, general manager of Sichuan House in San Antonio. “It’s either you wear masks and piss a couple people off, or you don’t wear masks and you piss a couple people off.”
At least one business owner, Macy Moore of HopFusion Ale Works in Fort Worth, said Wednesday on CNN that he had not slept since Abbott’s announcement because he’s so worried about the health and safety of his staff. Others, like Anne Ng of Bakery Lorraine in San Antonio, have decided to keep mask requirements in place for staff and customers regardless of what Abbott and the state government say.
“By repealing the mandate, the government is putting everyone at risk, and foodservice workers are sadly at the front lines in facing potential hostility from folks who will refuse to respect our mask policy,” Ng said. “We don’t deserve that.”
[…]
Christine Ha, a partner and co-executive chef at Xin Chao in Houston, sent out a notice to her whole staff Wednesday afternoon that the restaurant would continue requiring masks and operating at a reduced capacity. She expressed concern about enforcing those policies, though, because local agencies and law enforcement no longer have to support her restaurant’s safety requirements.
“This leaves it up to my team to enforce these policies, and they are in the business of hospitality, not policing,” Ha said.
There are many ways in this world to be an asshole. Yelling at a retail or restaurant worker who asks you to please observe their mask-wearing policy is one of the most effective ways to identify yourself as among the world’s biggest assholes.
What confuses Delia Ramos about Gov. Greg Abbott’s recent decision to cast off coronavirus restrictions in Texas isn’t his order to let more people into restaurants. The Brownsville school counselor knows people are hurting economically.
But with more than 43,000 dead in Texas — including her husband — is wearing a mask in public too much to ask? At the least, it could take pressure off the medical systems and help prevent more people from dying, she said.
“It’s not about taking away anybody’s job or making anybody else suffer financially because everybody has their families to take care of,” said Ramos, who lost her husband Ricardo to the coronavirus last year.
“People can go pick up groceries, people can go into a restaurant and people can shop around the mall in masks,” she said.
[…]
In nearby McAllen, Ana Flores watched Abbott’s announcement in disbelief on Tuesday. For the 39-year-old, who works at an adult day care, it immediately brought back memories of when Abbott loosened COVID-19 rules in May — weeks before infections surged and devastated the predominantly Hispanic or Latino communities along the U.S.-Mexico border.
She got severely sick with the virus. Her husband of ten years, a truck driver, who was cautious and “knew a little bit about everything,” was hospitalized and died at age 45.
“For [those of] us who lost a loved one, for us who survived — because I got pretty sick as well … it’s like a slap in the face,” Flores said of Abbott’s announcement, noting his “happy” tone and the “clapping” people around him.
For Abbott to say “it’s time for us to get on with our lives, everything to go back to normal,” she said, “normal is not going to happen for us ever again.”
She said it felt like Abbott “doesn’t care” that counties in the border are “still struggling” even if other parts of Texas are doing better.
Mandy Vair, whose father, a hospice chaplain, died with the virus last summer, saw the order and wondered: Did his death not matter? She and other family members were limiting social activities and wearing masks, but were infected in November and Vair was sick for weeks. Her family still hasn’t had a memorial ceremony for her late father because they don’t feel it’s safe to gather.
She said Abbott’s decision made her think, “He got his immunization and maybe all of those that are important to him already got the immunization. So [now] the rest have to kind of fend for themselves until their turn comes up,” she said. “We have to be responsible for ourselves — well, haven’t we been trying to be responsible for ourselves the whole time?”
Though I have to admit, Greg Abbott’s method is pretty effective as well. For more stories, if you’re not fully rounded up yet, here’s a collection from the Chron.
Rice and the University of Houston are sticking to their current Covid protocols, which include mask requirements.
I’m not going to discount the pain felt by people who have lost loved ones to the virus. One of my friends lost a brother in Mexico to the virus. I get it, it’s real, and if you are very unlucky, it could kill you. Having said that, forcing diktats that everyone must suffer to assuage the grief of the people interviewed here who lost loved ones is unreasonable. We have all suffered, and continuing to suffer en masse isn’t going to bring their loved ones back. It sure isn’t going to bring back all the businesses and jobs that are now gone back.
My only thought here is maybe businesses can bring back the old smoking/non smoking area concept. If you want to wear a mask, you go to one area of the restaurant, if you don’t, sit in a different area. Maybe grocery check out lines can be designated for masked people, others for no mask folks?
“There are many ways in this world to be an asshole. Yelling at a retail or restaurant worker who asks you to please observe their mask-wearing policy is one of the most effective ways to identify yourself as among the world’s biggest assholes.”
Much bigger is speeding, tailgating, not signalling your turns/lane changes, getting all enraged at people riding a bicycle on the street, and driving a BMW made after 1989. But YOU do all of those things. However, I never yell at store or restaurant workers, and have yet to see anyone go off at a store or restaurant when asked to wear a mask, as little as it may help. So, it is really not much of a problem. Let’s focus Operation Stay Safe on more serious threats.
“ My only thought here is maybe businesses can bring back the old smoking/non smoking area concept. ”
What a short memory you have. Those were an utter failure. Why? Because cigarette smoke never stopped at any artificial boundary. 2nd hand smoke harms others, and it is appropriate that smoking is banned in bars and restaurants. Your freedom isn’t supposed to cross the line into harming others. Masks are at their most effective when EVERYONE in an inside space is wearing them. The virus isn’t going to stop at the border between the mask zone and the no-mask zone.
I’m disgusted by the sheer childishness of the mask whiners. I’ll bet that they don’t inconvenience you at your jobs as they do at mine- it is a royal pain in the ass trying to work microscopes while masked. But I deal with it because I want normal back and this is one of the smaller sacrifices. I have friends in the heath care professions who are literally risking their lives, so for their sakes damn straight I can wear a mask and social distance for a few more months. It is shameful that people asked to do the bare minimum can’t behave like adults.
Agreed, Fly… a no smoking area (or mask only area) is like the no peeing area of a swimming pool.
Fly,
You fear me without a face muzzle, and I’m not sick. Tell us, why don’t you fear the diseased illegals Biden is setting loose in Texas right now, today? Maybe you don’t, because they probably won’t be shopping at Central Market or Rice Epicurian.
The diseased illegals will be shopping (or shoplifting, anyway) at La Michocana, El Ahorra, and other Hispanic stores, infecting Manny’s people. Obviously, you don’t care about them, because, well, nobody cares about them anyway, really, except on voting day, and since they don’t block vote D, well, then they really don’t matter, do they?
You want me to pretend to be diseased to make you feel better, meanwhile, you’re totally fine with actual diseased people flooding the country. You’ll excuse me if I don’t care at all about your feelings, since you abandoned logic long ago.
Let me know when you start caring about ALL Americans, even the brown ones, and maybe I’ll be a little more sympathetic to costuming up to make you ‘feel’ better.
>You fear me without a face muzzle, and I’m not sick.
What part of “Asymptomatic spread” are you failing to understand here?
>>Tell us, why don’t you fear the diseased illegals Biden is setting loose in Texas right now, today? Maybe you don’t, because they probably won’t be shopping at Central Market or Rice Epicurean.
Ohhh the xenophobia card! Very Predictable. The standard RWNJ fearmongering. OK let’s look at these people. They’re mostly from places like Honduras, Nicarauga, and El Salvador. Here’s a very recent update of the number of Covid cases, per country:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1043366/novel-coronavirus-2019ncov-cases-worldwide-by-country/
You have to scroll way, way down that list before you see any of those countries. Notice who’s #1? Even Mexico has less then 10% of the cases that we do. In the absence of any Covid tests for conformation, whom would you bet is more likely to have it- another Texan or someone from Central America?
>>You want me to pretend to be diseased to make you feel better, meanwhile, you’re totally fine with actual diseased people flooding the country. You’ll excuse me if I don’t care at all about your feelings, since you abandoned logic long ago.
You claim these people are bringing in the disease. How do you know that they didn’t catch it here, given the very big differences in Covid #s? Why aren’t you complaining about Greg Abbott turning down federal grant money to do testing on these people so that anyone who tests positive could be quarantined? But that would interfere will all the fear mongering!
>>Let me know when you start caring about ALL Americans, even the brown ones, and maybe I’ll be a little more sympathetic to costuming up to make you ‘feel’ better.
This has nothing to do with my feelings. I have the luxury of being able to stay the hell far away from dangerously ignorant people like you. Others don’t. It has everything to do with public health. People like you make me wonder if America is broken beyond repair. If you actually cared about other Americans, you won’t be bitching about something like masks, which are a worst a minor inconvenience for the vast majority of us. But it’s tribal politics over the common good.
When the F did wearing a mask become ‘suffering’ ? It’s barely an inconvenience.
My God we’ve become soft.
Fly,
Here’s 108 disease vectors unleashed into Texas by the Biden regime:
https://nypost.com/2021/03/03/migrants-in-texas-who-tested-positive-for-covid-reportedly-released/
“Some of the migrants described to Noticias Telemundo Investiga how they were tested at the border and then allowed to hit the streets despite a positive result for the coronavirus.
Miriam Izaguirre, a migrant from Honduras, said she crossed the Rio Grande on Monday with her young son and surrendered to authorities but was released within a few hours by the Border Patrol.”
Let’s recap:
~they were already diseased when they got here
~they were tested, in lieu of testing actual Americans, and Lord knows, we need more testing in the US….there are plenty of threads about it right here at OTK
~we have PROOF that Biden is importing diseased people into Texas and just letting them go
How many ended up in Houston? Maybe one of them will infect and kill someone YOU love, but you can’t, you won’t oppose that, because you’re not a racist. You’d rather die, or watch a loved one die, than oppose diseased illegals being let into the country. Nice.
The Bill and Jason fascist show continues. They won’t stop with their lies and spreading of hate until white supremacy rules.
Manny,
Did the Biden regime release 108 previously infected illegal aliens into Texas, or is that a lie? If it’s a lie, list your source. Show me that the New York Post is lying, that Miriam and her young son were NOT infected prior to illegally entering the US, and show me that the Biden regime, in a departure from the Trump administration, didn’t release Miriam and her son to infect people all over Texas in her travels, as a modern day Typhoid Miriam.
Here you go, Manny, from Telemundo, a leftist site:
https://www.telemundo.com/noticias/noticias-telemundo/inmigracion/la-patrulla-fronteriza-libera-108-inmigrantes-positivos-con-covid-19-en-una-ciudad-de-tmna3868969
“BROWNSVILLE, Texas. – Miriam Izaguirre, una inmigrante hondureña de 35 años, cruzó el Río Grande al amanecer de este lunes con su hijo pequeño y se entregó a las autoridades. Unas horas después, liberada por la Patrulla Fronteriza, pisó las calles de Estados Unidos.
[Read this piece in English in NBC News]
Lo primero que hizo en libertad fue un test rápido de COVID-19 en la estación de autobuses de Brownsville: le dijeron que salió positiva.
“Ahorita nos hicieron una prueba de COVID y nos apartaron como a ocho porque salimos positivos”, contó a Noticias Telemundo Investiga. “Estamos esperando ahorita”. Esperaba para tomar un bus; su destino final es Houston.”
Oh, lookie, Manny, Miriam IS headed right for Houston! She’s headed straight here to spread her disease that she’s brought from the old country.
Is Telemundo in on the big racist lie along with me and Jason? We’re all in this conspiracy to make shit up together? Me, Jason, and Telemundo? Alrighty then.
“Here’s 108 disease vectors unleashed into Texas by the Biden regime”
It says “Some of the migrants described to Noticias Telemundo Investiga how they were tested at the border and then allowed to hit the streets despite a positive result for the coronavirus.”
Some of them. So not the whole 108 then.
Here’s what the TX Tribune has to say:
https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/04/greg-abbott-joe-biden-immigrants-testing/
Here’s a very salient point that you don’t want to acknowledge:
“..the Department of Homeland Security had tried to use Federal Emergency Management Agency dollars to help local officials test migrants released from federal custody and isolate them if they test positive. The grant money needed state approval to be allocated, CNN reported.
Abbott seemed to make clear Thursday that he was not interested in the federal offer. ”
So the Biden Admin wants to isolate the people with Covid. If Abbott was truly concerned about stopping Covid, he’d accept that grant money and use it to quarantine people who test positive. That’s my issue with this, that funds were available to do this, but GOPers want to play that scary immigrant card, and they won’t do anything to help if it means working with Dems. Partisan politics over country, over public health.
I think it’s a very bad thing that there isn’t any quarantine here. I hope the Feds will stop waiting for Abbott to actually act like a responsible public servant and do it themselves. People who test positive should not be traveling, regardless of whether they are citizens or not.
Also noteworthy:
“The 108 tests over the past five weeks is a small share of the more than 3,800 confirmed cases in Cameron County reported by the state since Jan. 25.”
So less than 3%. You’re still more likely to catch it from a fellow Texan.
Also you playing the scary immigrant card still doesn’t justify your selfish, whiny, childish behavior concerning masks.
Fly,
Read the quote again:
It says “Some of the migrants described to Noticias Telemundo Investiga how they were tested at the border and then allowed to hit the streets despite a positive result for the coronavirus.”
Some of the infected illegals gave interviews to Telemundo. Telemundo didn’t talk to all 108 of the infected, they talked to some of them, enough to get the story and print it. ALL 108 newly captured illegals were diseased already when they were caught crossing the border, but only some of them talked to Telemundo.
And what if it was only ONE illegal that Biden let in? Why is that OK with you? Why does Abbott need to do anything? Why is it just not possible for Biden to keep these infected out, just like Trump did? The proximate cause of Miriam coming to Houston to infect Manny’s people is Joe Biden, no one else. The deaths Miriam will cause are entirely on Joe Biden, not on Abbott, me, or anyone else.
Until you get over your own selfishness, your desire to virtue signal at the expense of your fellow Americans, you have no business telling me that I am selfish. Pull that mote out of your own eye first, Fly.
Fly, those fascists are full of manure their goal is the same as the Naziis, that would be Bill and Jason. They will lie to promote their hate.
Good news, Fly! Illegal aliens will qualify for the newest round of “stimulus” payola, if they will simply apply for an ITIN number from the IRS. So Miriam and her son can be rewarded with $ 2,800 from the taxpayers of the US. Think of how she can use that money to spread the disease around!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/23/fact-check-stimulus-checks-bill-aids-some-undocumented-immigrants-itin/3005695001/
Since Bill persists in promoting his hateful fascist lies, let me remind him and others what Bill has written before, the following is but a small sample of his fascist racism and bigotry;
give orders for the soldiers to shoot to kill any person entering the kill zone from the Mexican side, period. Women? Children? Old people? Military age males? Waste anyone that crosses from Mexico into the US. Back that up with predator drones . and perhaps an A-10 every 3 or 4 hundred miles, for close air support for larger groups, and you’ve secured the border, with no fences.
I support abortion, because most of the murdered kids would otherwise have been born to liberal parents. It’s better they were never born and don’t have to suffer the neglect, abuse, and brainwashing leftist parent(s) are known for. They also don’t grow up to vote for leftists, so there’s that, too. Look at the crime and rioting in leftist controlled areas; Without easy access to abortions, the crime rate in those areas would be even higher as the unwanted, un-cared for kids grow up and turn into ‘super predators.’
It’s really ironic. You would think that leftists would be the ones opposing abortion because it mainly kills their own voters.
It is also obvious that Meghan wears the pants in your family because otherwise you would not have used your dog whistle to mock our president. You used to be a real man who other men looked up to. Now you’re seen as nothing more than a milquetoast.
Sadly, you went from a hero in 2008, when you served on the front lines in Afghanistan, to a henpecked husband now. You have been turned into a puppet whose strings are being pulled by a domineering bitch.
And your press is nearly as bad as the daily attacks against the President by the Trump-hating media. The only good press you get is in the US, but only when you bad-mouth President Trump.
Your fame-hungry wife is achieving her goal. There is even talk about her being a future presidential candidate. Horrors!!
Harry, I’m sure you are having great sex and getting mind-blowing blow jobs, but when all is said and done, your marriage will eventually head for the rocks. And it will most likely be a bitter and contentious divorce involving the custody of your wonderful son Archie. But when it’s all over, you’ll be rid of the domineering bitch.
LOL! While I would agree with most that this isn’t the typical BJP subject matter, surprise, surprise, surprise…..I pretty much agree with Howie.
Bill, is a racist, a bigot, and a misogynist.
“Some of the infected illegals gave interviews to Telemundo. Telemundo didn’t talk to all 108 of the infected, they talked to some of them, enough to get the story and print it. ALL 108 newly captured illegals were diseased already when they were caught crossing the border, but only some of them talked to Telemundo.”
Faulty conclusion. Good thing you’re not a lawyer- you’d be laughed out of court. If all you have is the Telemundo article, you can only make claims about about the subset of people who talked to Telemundo. If you want to make claims about any others, you need additional sources.
“Good news, Fly! Illegal aliens will qualify for the newest round of “stimulus” payola, if they will simply apply for an ITIN number from the IRS. So Miriam and her son can be rewarded with $ 2,800 from the taxpayers of the US.”
When I post sources, I actually read them. You obviously do not. You only have an ITTN number if you have been working AND paying taxes. This person who you are choosing as the form of the destroyer just arrived, doesn’t have a job, and wouldn’t qualify. More lies.
And now I’m going to shock and scandalize you even further. The people who would qualify here would include the people who work jobs like meat packing, which is difficult and dangerous even without Covid around. That’s a valuable and necessary service for society. They’re ensuring that we have food on the table, so I have zero problem with those people getting some financial aid. Because, you know, I’m so “selfish”.
All this is a yet another futile attempt by you to insist that we look at your molehills and ignore the mountains. If you didn’t have fallacies of distraction, you’d have precious little to post here. All the RW trolls across the internet are dutifully repeating this distraction. It does not change the fact that there is a strong consensus in the healthcare profession that Abbott jumped the gun, and this is a bad idea based on politics, not science. It does not change the fact that a mask mandate wasn’t hurting you, and all your complaining is also based in politics, not science. You calling anyone else selfish is mere projection.
Fly,
With respect to your conclusion on where the illegals became diseased, either outside of the US, or after they got here, based on the available evidence, I’d say my supposition is much more plausible than yours. For your supposition to be true, the illegals would have had to cross illegally, then catch the virus from folks already in Texas, and then hang around a few days undetected by the Border Patrol, for the virus to multiply in their bodies such that they would have enough viral load to actually test positive. So in Miriam’s case, she floated across the Rio Grande, met an infected person on this side, and hung out on the border for a few days (why would she do this?) THEN got picked up by La Migra. That doesn’t make any sense. The very first thing illegals want to do is get into the interior of the US, to get past the interior Border Patrol checkpoints. Why would she just hang out right near the river for days on end? Logic fail, Fly.
Next fail:
“When I post sources, I actually read them. You obviously do not. You only have an ITTN number if you have been working AND paying taxes. This person who you are choosing as the form of the destroyer just arrived, doesn’t have a job, and wouldn’t qualify. More lies.”
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/how-do-i-apply-for-an-itin
“When should I apply?
You can apply for an ITIN any time during the year when you have a filing or reporting requirement. At a minimum, you should complete Form W-7 when you are ready to file your federal income tax return by the return’s prescribed due date. If the tax return you attach to Form W-7 is filed after the return’s due date, you may owe interest and/or penalties.”
Fly, how is Miriam going to support herself here in the US (let’s assume she’s not going to be a hooker or a professional thief)? She’s going to have to get a job, and she’ll have to have an ITIN number so she can file her taxes and get that sweet, sweet EITC payola, which will be more than whatever meager amount her employer will deduct via FICA, SS and Med.
Did you read the IRS site? Miriam can file for the ITIN ANY TIME during the year she needs to. There’s nothing prohibiting Miriam from getting her ITIN right now, today. If I was pro-illegal, I’d be making sure that each one of them had an application to fill out as soon as they came out of the river. In fact, without the ITIN, an employer can’t even make the tax payments to the government on behalf of their new illegal alien employee, so it would have to be filed for before the employee started working.
And finally, your emotional appeal argument to me is that we need illegals to work meat packing jobs. How many open meat packing jobs are there in the US, approximately? How many unemployed Americans are out there demanding their forever unemployment insurance with federal enhancement? Miriam didn’t say anything about coming here to work a meat packing job. What experience does she have with that?
Let me help you with this, Fly. You don’t need Miriam or her son here in Houston to work in a meat packing plant. You’re going to eat just fine without those two diseased people here, infecting American meat packing workers. Miriam and her kid are diseased, Fly. Whatever you think about open borders, America, from the time it had immigration controls, never accepted diseased people. Why do you insist we start now?
Abbott formally avers: “with guidance from medical advisors” [NB: ‘s’ denotes plural]
“I, Greg Abbott, Governor of Texas, by virtue of the power and authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the State of Texas, and in accordance with guidance from medical advisors, do hereby order the following on a statewide basis effective at 12:01 a.m. on March 10, 2021.”
https://www.dshs.state.tx.us/coronavirus/execorders.aspx#eos (list of Gov’s COVID orders with links).”
Is he lying?
Here is what the Trib reports:
Shawn Mulcahy, ‘Three of Gov. Greg Abbott’s four coronavirus medical advisers say they weren’t directly consulted before he lifted mask mandate: One adviser said he thinks it’s too soon for the state to stop requiring masks in public.’
TEXAS TRIBUNE (Mar. 3, 2021).
PS: Picked up a takeaway fajita feast from Guadalajara Mexican Grille (curbside pickup and delivery also available). Was pleased to see a NO MASK NO SERVICE sign prominently placed on the front door (and distance markers in front of the register). Lets patronize and reward restaurants that act responsibly.
Bill the racist, bigot, fascist, keeps wanting to talk about brown skin folks. Cast the blame on minorities for their failure as men. The Naziis did the same thing blaming Jews and other minorities for their failure as a country.
Bill, there are more Trump-loving fascists like you that will expose Americans to covid than any brown skin folks that ICE may release.
“So in Miriam’s case, she floated across the Rio Grande, met an infected person on this side, and hung out on the border for a few days (why would she do this?) THEN got picked up by La Migra. That doesn’t make any sense. ”
I never said that was Miriam’s case. Her case is established. You are trying to put words in my mouth yet again, and that’s bullshit. My issue is that you are taking the experiences of 2 people, and claiming, in the absence of any evidence, the 106 other people had that same exact experience. Your source doesn’t say that every person who tested positive was tested right at the border, then released. You are overreaching with your conclusion, and if this were a scientific presentation, it would be rejected for too small of a sample size. If you want to claim that the other 106 people did the exact same things as Miriam, show the evidence.
“Fly, how is Miriam going to support herself here in the US (let’s assume she’s not going to be a hooker or a professional thief)? She’s going to have to get a job,… ”
Which means that she would be contributing and paying taxes, not mooching. Also given the publicity around her, it would have to be after she tests negative.
“…and she’ll have to have an ITIN number so she can file her taxes and get that sweet, sweet EITC payola, which will be more than whatever meager amount her employer will deduct via FICA, SS and Med.”
Bullshit. If she files taxes, she has to pay into Social Security, which she won’t be eligible to receive unless she gets legal status. The absolute maximum amount of EITC she could claim would be $3,526, after working for a year, and if her income were enough for that, there’d also be bigger deductions for FICA, SS and Med. She’ll be paying sales taxes, and even property taxes indirectly if she rented a place.
I personally think this is a bad, dishonest system, that exploits vulnerable people, and desperately needs reform. But lies and hysteria and scapegoating from people like you aren’t going to help fix it.
“How many open meat packing jobs are there in the US, approximately? How many unemployed Americans are out there demanding their forever unemployment insurance with federal enhancement?”
The situation with who’s getting hired by the meatpacking industry has been around long before covid. We all know the shady reasons why. By all means let’s get some reforms going.
“Miriam didn’t say anything about coming here to work a meat packing job. What experience does she have with that?”
Neither did I. You are again trying to make her representative of everyone who is undocumented. You are again being dishonest by putting words into other people’s mouths. She’s not eligible for the covid relief payment in this bill. The people currently packing meat are.
Manny,
I want you to close your eyes for a minute, and imagine that Trump was intentionally importing diseased people into Texas. Can you imagine that? Trump allowing diseased people into Texas, to infect you and your family? Visualize it, Manny.
Now imagine the diseased people Trump imported into Texas to infect your family were White. Can you see the problem now?
Follow the science, Manny. The virus doesn’t care what color the people who are spreading it are, or whether they are here legally or not, it just spreads, Manny.
FLYPUSHERS VS. LIEPUSHERS
Thank you for raising the level of the debate and exposing the fallacies in reasoning and argumentation that are all-too prevalent, if not pandemic.
“Bullshit. If she files taxes, she has to pay into Social Security, which she won’t be eligible to receive unless she gets legal status. The absolute maximum amount of EITC she could claim would be $3,526, after working for a year, and if her income were enough for that, there’d also be bigger deductions for FICA, SS and Med. She’ll be paying sales taxes, and even property taxes indirectly if she rented a place.”
OK, Fly, let’s examine that. Let’s just say she gets an $ 8/hr job and works a full 40 hours a week. How many Americans are complaining that they can’t get full time jobs, only part time? But Miriam beats the odds and beats out American citizens and gets a full time job.
40 x $ 8 = 320/week x 52 weeks = $ 16,640 gross
Her total SS and Medicare contributions work out to just over $ 1,000. Double that for the employer match and now we’re at just over $ 2,000. And Miriam plus one dependent (assuming she doesn’t count 12 other phantom dependents in Honduras) isn’t going to pay once cent of actual FICA. So by your own metric, Miriam pays roughly $ 2K in total federal tax between her direct deduction and the employer match, but gets an EITC “refund” of $ 3,526.
So Miriam, working full time at $ 8/hr costs you, the taxpayer, about $ 1,500 a year in just direct federal payments, and that’s before she collects the $ 2,800 of Biden bucks that are on the table right now. That’s before we calculate the cost of the military that will protect Miriam, FEMA that will feed her after a disaster, the federal courts and highways that Miriam will enjoy, and all the other federal services she is provided that she will not be paying for. At best, you’ll make back a little bit of that with federal excise taxes on her alcohol, cigarettes, and gasoline purchases, but she won’t be net contributing any taxes, Fly. She just joins all the other takers that the US allows to come in illegally.
But wait! OMG, she’ll indirectly be paying property tax! We’re saved! Let’s say she is responsible for (I am being generous here) $ 1,000 worth of property tax paid on her rental. That doesn’t come close to paying for the benefits she will enjoy from the various city and county departments. For that $ 1,000 a year she’ll get flood control, libraries, police, fire, courts, roads and bridges, etc. She’ll get expensive ESL schooling for her little hijo and others that she procreates. What is the per capita cost of an ESL student? I’m just spitballing, but it’s probably close to $ 15,000/year.
So Miriam is getting all that great stuff, including a $ 15K/year education, plus free breakfasts, free lunches, take home food on the weekend (assuming he’s enrolled at HISD), all for the bargain price of maybe $ 1,000 per year. Great for Miriam, not so great for everyone that has to pay for her First World lifestyle.
It’s also not great for the American citizen that can’t get the job she took. Until our unemployment rate approaches zero, we certainly don’t need a random, diseased Miriam from Honduras to save us.
Wolf,
I too, appreciate Fly giving it the ol’ college try, making the best defense he can of the indefensible, but we are down to arguing minutia……instead of trying to defend WHY infected illegals are being released and sent right here to Houston, as is Miriam’s case, we’re arguing about where the released illegals contracted their illness. Do you think the American citizen Texans that Miriam and her son infect really care whether Miriam contracted the virus in Honduras, or in Mexico, or contracted it on this side of the border?
I’m also awaiting Fly’s response to the “Miriam is a noble taxpayer in service to America” rebuttal I just gave.
ARGUMENT BY HAND-PICKED ANECDOTE
Bill: So we have had 2.69M reported cases in Texas (and who knows how many undetected ones) each and any one of which could/could have caused additional infections (that’s after all, how epidemics work), and you rest your argument on the desirability of isolating (or expelling a single case of a single person who happened to cross the border)?
Assuming your “problem analysis” based on factual content from a newspaper narrative (legally, hearsay) has merit, wouldn’t it be logical to assert that each of 2.69 million should have been isolated? – We wouldn’t have racked up that number had effective epidemiological interventions be adopted and enforced, and had Abbott not reopened early for political reasons the first time around. The spread could have been slowed down, and more people saved through the vax solution that has now come within reach.
It takes only 1 case to get an epidemic going. So Miriam constitutes on 1 case. But we are way past the patient-zero point by multi-millions in Texas alone.
So what does Miriam’s story prove or disprove?
That human-2-human transmission is something to be taken seriously?
After years of following this blog, I’m still surprised at the shear number of folks who choose to debate (within this blog’s user comment section) Mr. Shifting Sands himself, Bill D.
IMHO, an exercise in futility.
I like that C.L.,
Bill, sand shifter
“So Miriam, working full time at $ 8/hr costs you, the taxpayer, about $ 1,500 a year in just direct federal payments, and that’s before she collects the $ 2,800 of Biden bucks that are on the table right now.”
But she’s not eligible for that $2800. That only applies to people on file with the IRS RIGHT NOW. Unless you can pull up something in the bill that allows retroactive filing for that stimulus payment, you are stating a falsehood on that particular point. You can have the $1500, but not the extra $2,800.
“It’s also not great for the American citizen that can’t get the job she took. ”
American citizens aren’t lining up to take the sorts of jobs that undocumented people fill. You still keep averting your eyes from the elephant in the room.
Now I’ll concede if she gets an $8/hour job that she’s getting some subsidizing by taxpayers. But that also would apply if an American worked that job. $ 16,640 is below the poverty line. Which again gets at that elephant in the room.
“instead of trying to defend WHY infected illegals are being released and sent right here to Houston”
Except no one’s defending that. I’ve already stated up thread that people who tested positive should have been quarantined. The issue is that you’re trying to distract from the much bigger threat.
Fly,
You’ve got a reasonable question. How long does it take for someone who applied for an ITIN number to get it? You correctly point out that Miriam needs to have an ITIN number BEFORE Congress approves the Bidenbucks, in order to get her well deserved share of YOUR tax money.
It’s a race against the clock for Miriam and every other illegal Uncle Joe is unleashing on us, illegals kept out and/or repatriated immediately by Trump. Get the ITIN issued before the free money is approved and sent.
Do you have any evidence that there is a minimum length of time that an ITIN number must have been valid for in order to collect ‘stimulus’ bucks? I’ve looked, and I see no language like that at all, rather, it seems a little bit like being pregnant…..you either have the ITIN by the time the payments are authorized, or you don’t.
Having said that, maybe I’m wrong, and there’s something I didn’t see that requires a certain amount of time holding an ITIN before one becomes eligible for the stimulus.
And thank you for at least agreeing that Miriam is instantly going to be another mouth to feed for the taxpayers, since she won’t be paying her own way by a long shot. What I’m trying to get you to understand is, the job that Miriam is going to take would have otherwise been filled by an American citizen. So now, we’re subsidizing Miriam, and FULLY PAYING to support the American citizen who makes NO money because Miriam took the job the citizen would otherwise have gotten. Miriam caused someone else’s effective minimum wage to be ZERO.
So instead of Miriam staying at home, and a citizen making that $ 16K, plus getting a little subsidization from the government, now we’ve got a citizen, maybe a woman with a son, who is totally dependent on the government for every single thing.
Miriam has cost our country way more than the $ 1,500 of direct payment, plus stimulus if she gets her ITIN on time. Miriam has condemned a US citizen to being entirely on the public dole, and that US citizen is most probably a non White person, Fly.
Finally, you’re miffed about $ 8/hour as a wage offered for any job. I get that. Why would I as an employer offer more, when I have 100 Miriams lined up for a job, who will be happy to accept that wage? The people most hurt by Miriam and all those like here are usually non Whites, Fly.
Millions of Miriams have a deleterious effect on everything, Fly. They cost actual taxpayers money, and they cost US citizens the opportunity to get a foothold on the economic ladder, and depress wages for US citizens who do have a job. And I haven’t even gotten started on the remittances Miriam will send to the old country. That’s money that won’t circulate in our economy.
Bill, the fascist, continues with the shifting sand analogy. As to Americans taking the jobs;
“That has made California farms a proving ground for the Trump team’s theory that by cutting off the flow of immigrants they will free up more jobs for American-born workers and push up their wages.
So far, the results aren’t encouraging for farmers or domestic workers.
Farmers are being forced to make difficult choices about whether to abandon some of the state’s hallmark fruits and vegetables, move operations abroad, import workers under a special visa or replace them altogether with machines.”
or
“More than $1 million worth of blueberries could rot in the fields, he said, and he has no plan B.
“Domestic labor just don’t want to do this kind of work. It’s unfortunate to say, but they just don’t want to get out and do hard field labor anymore,” White said.
Georgia’s commissioner of agriculture Gary Black echoed the farmers’ concerns.
“It is a reality. If there are not workers, there will be crops that will go unharvested, and that has a ripple effect throughout this economy, and it will affect the consumers of this nation,” he said.”
If Bill really believed that the fascists he supports want Americans to have jobs, he is in sore need of a functioning brain. The fascists control the state of Texas they could easily pass a requirement that all companies e-verify all their workers. Why don’t they?
Re: Miriam the alien and her “economic utility” (ouch) to domestic Americans
Your reasoning is fundamentally flawed, and here is why:
If Miriam works (whether for $8 or $16 dollars per hour and whether with federal government sanctioned or not), she is contributing to the GDP, which is the proper measure of overall production (“the economy”). Note that the “D” in GDP stands for domestic, meaning USA (or Texas, or Houston) which is our shared physical area of reference.
And she is then going to spend that $8 to pay for the necessities of life (because that is a sine qua non for being a living human unit in the community on an ongoing basis, whether she is designated as “illegal” or not), and that $8 is then revenue for domestic business (same physical area of reference).
Come to think of it, if she renders services compensated at an hourly rate of $16, it will be even better for the domestic economy, for she will likely spend all of it, thus doubling the revenue stream for domestic business. Point being: not only will she be a producer (contributor to the economy as measured by the GDP), she will also be a consumer who spends money). And if she recently arrived, she will be contributing to economic growth (over-time upward change in GDP), relative to the status quo ante (with her still located on the other side of the Rio Grande or whatever else it was that divided us).
Wolf,
The fatal flaw in your argument is, Miriam contributes to the GDP, meanwhile, Marsha contributes nothing because Miriam took her job..
Until the millions of unemployed Marshas are working first, all the Miriams in the world will not help at all.
Miriam being here is a net loss for America, for all the reasons listed. Disease vector, money leaving the US economy, idling an American we will then have to support, etc.
@ Manny,
If we need bracero labor on farms, I am OK with vetting qualified visa applicants for that work. Miriam isn’t coming to Houston to work on a farm, though, and I think we both know that.
Deport her back to Honduras, let her either recover or die from the virus, then she can apply for a farm worker visa, provided she has the experience and skill set required.
An ITIN does not qualify a person for the third stimulus check according to every source I could find. So, Bill, that makes your argument specious.
In addition, the “Marsha” you claim lost her job to “Miriam” is specious, because Americans typically won’t take, or stay, in the jobs that the aliens perform. Alabama farmers were paying over $20 to harvest produce, and had to switch to machine harvestable crops because Americans refused to do the work, complaining it was “too hot” or “it’s hard work”.
EGOCENTRICS VS. ECONOMICS
She will be buying tortillas y frijoles y mucho mas — at Fiesta, likely — and Fiesta and its suppliers will have increased volume of business as result, including need for laborers for restocking the shelves and display cases, truckers to ship in the groceries and merchandise, and so on up the supply chain. Multiply our paradigmatic Miriam’s modest spending by N of immigrants, and the economic effect will be proportionate, and much larger in the aggregate. The more additional human economic units, the larger the increase in the GDP a/k/a economic growth.
To simplify the abstract concept: Think ripple effect. Miriam buys a pack of tortillas that she didn’t buy when she was not yet here, sending a signal up the supply chain to procure more flour for such tortillas. More tortilla production, more hours of work on and around the tortilla machine, more demand for flour, and so on. At each stage of production and distribution value is added, measurable in $$. At each level demand for labor will also increase, all other things being equal (replacement of human labor by machines/computers/AI has a bearing on this).
Also, I have a shocker for you: Transfer payments to the unemployed (or the quarantined, or the previously-pregnant persons raising future economic production units) also have beneficial effects on the macro economy, not to mention the social value or, if you will, anti-poverty benefits (for those who care about such matters). That’s because the consumer spending made possible by the transfer payments also helps the economy even if the source is public, rather than wage or labor, esp. in a country where consumer spending constitutes such an important component of the overall economy.
Your scarcity-of-labor/finite-supply-of-jobs reasoning sounds oddly Marxist, similarly dubious, and strangely unaware of the dynamic nature of the economic system.
Owned him…
Bill, you did not respond as to why the fascists who control Texas don’t make E-verify mandatory.
LOL @ Wolf!
You’ve managed to combine the pure evil of the Frankfurt School with the zany idealism of the Yang Gang! I’m reminded of when Nancy Pelosi was rightly castigated for promoting unemployment and welfare checks as a great way to stimulate the economy. What you’re suggesting is codifying a permanent class of Marshas that become our new Eloi who do not work, meanwhile, we import a steady stream of Morlocks, because, well, somebody has to actually do the work to make society run.
Our country didn’t become successful and exceptional by having tens of millions of Marshas, sitting at home eating bon bons and watching soap operas like Peggy Bundy. Our country became successful because people worked hard for what they wanted. Now you want to pay Marsha to sit at the house, and pay Miriam to supplement her income from the job she took from Marsha.
I suspect, for the trifecta, Wolf, you’re probably also a proponent of MMT. Hey, just print all the money you want to pay people not to work, then print money to pay foreigners to actually do the work, and everybody’s happy…..right until we hit hyperinflation and we become Zimbabwe or Venezuela.
Sheesh, I don’t know what’s worse, a Morlock like Manny who doesn’t really understand this stuff, and just operates out of sheer animalistic hate, or a button down, well spoken person like Wolf who clearly does understand what he is promoting.
Manny,
I actually did support E-verify, but it’s a moot point now. Illegals are
….our most venerated Americans now. It would be racist to not employ all the fresh across the border Miriams. Sorry black people, who now have the highest unemployment rate in quite a while. Miriam and her Honduran compadres need your jobs. You don’t mind just going back on welfare again, right?
I mean, it’s not like it’s demoralizing to not be able to work, and gain the pride and self worth that comes along with taking care of yourself.
Bill, not what you claim to support, why are the fascists that are in control not doing that? Why aren’t you busting their balls?
You and the other fascists want the cheap labor, but use the brown folks to promote hate.
Bill, you are a racist, a bigot, and a misogynist.
“Millions of Miriams have a deleterious effect on everything, Fly. They cost actual taxpayers money, and they cost US citizens the opportunity to get a foothold on the economic ladder, and depress wages for US citizens who do have a job. And I haven’t even gotten started on the remittances Miriam will send to the old country. That’s money that won’t circulate in our economy.”
Such a deleterious effect, that our economy just can’t get enough of cheap labor, and businesses see the risk of getting caught hiring undocumented people as an acceptable cost of doing business. Nobody complains because the prices of things like food and construction are cheaper because of those low wages. Probably that offsets a lot of those taxpayer costs, and people are more likely to register and complain about a jump in the price of beef than something like a 1-2% tax increase. Also, as others have pointed out, Americans will not do many of those jobs, and it’s not like attempts haven’t been made. This underground economy runs because it is profitable, because there is demand, because lots of people wink and look the other way. But people like you always point to the wrong place in the chain. Miriam has become your scapegoat here, but not the people who laugh all the way to the bank.
Our immigration system, considering what it claims to be, is a total farce, a cruel fiction.