With debate over the nation’s immigration policies once again approaching full boil, Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick on Wednesday pledged that the Senate next session would pass legislation to address so-called sanctuary cities.
Patrick lamented that the Legislature this year didn’t pass a measure to bar local rules that prohibit police from asking the immigration status of people they stop. A vote short this year from bringing up the bill on the Senate floor, he vowed that 2017 would be different.
“I’m totally confident that we now have the votes,” the Republican said. “I’m totally confident that one of the first measures we will pass in 2017, when we come back, will be to ban sanctuary cities in Texas.”
[…]
Though Democrats find the proposals especially noxious, more moderate Republicans also pushed back against those efforts. The “sanctuary cities” bill didn’t receive a hearing in the House and was bottled up in the Senate by Sen. Kevin Eltife and others.
“It doesn’t serve any purpose,” Eltife, a Tyler Republican, told The Dallas Morning News in April. “And it goes against the grain, when we are trying to include Hispanics in the Republican Party.”
But Eltife isn’t running for re-election in 2016, and some moderate Republicans in the House have likewise bowed out. With those spots now up for grabs, Patrick said the debate would likely be different in two years.
See here and here for some background. Patrick is the main force behind this legislation – House Speaker Joe Straus is generally not a fan, and Greg Abbott is likes to avoid the question – so you can be sure it will be a priority, though perhaps not a successful one. Still, this is something that could affect Houston – another example of the abandonment of “local control” by the Republicans under Abbott – so it would be nice to know what the Mayoral candidates think about this, and what if anything they plan to do about it. I have a suspicion this question may come up in future interviews.
A Police Officer should be able to ask any question about any law violation that he has probable cause to ask. Any other policy is just plain stupid. Everyone who thinks by allowing Police Officers to ask questions about someones legal status will clear up immigration is stupid. Anyone who thinks Police Officers will start making arrests of illegals is stupid. If Police Officers did make immigration arrests the jails couldn’t hold them. If they did make arrests everyone and I mean everyone would press City Hall to stop making arrests.
HPD making immigration arrests and the resulting outrage that would accompany such arrests would unite people in both parties. Republicans, democrats, Tea Party, Lulac, and Black Panther all unified to stop making immigration arrests. That is my prediction.
PK, if an officer isn’t going to act on the information he is asking about, what would be the purpose of asking? It’s my understanding that they inquire when arresting someone for a higher level charge, Class B or above, as that is part of the charges they file locally.
Then HCSO runs them through their ICE system as part of the 287g program since 2008 (?) where former Sheriff Garcia had his staff refer 1000 a month to ICE, more deported under his reign than any sheriff in Harris County before him (at least until Obama’s now stayed executive order). I’m sure Manuel knows more about it as it’s a pet issue of his.
But there are a lot of people locally that want deputies and police to arrest for the civil statute violation of immigration to deport people. You can read their comments in any immigration story of the Chronicle, hear them vent at city council meetings, and talk to them at civic club meetings. To most people, THAT is what they are speaking of when they refer to Houston as a sanctuary city, the police refusing to arrest illegals for being illegal (or “undocumented” if that keeps you know who off my back). I don’t think that makes for good policy and the feds won’t take most of them so arresting would become an expensive catch and release program.
I am strongly opposed to HPD or HCSO going around and asking witnesses, or random folks, about their immigration status. It’s counterproductive and a waste of time. Checking the status of those charged with a B misdemeanor or higher is reasonable.
Steven,
You said..
“PK, if an officer isn’t going to act on the information he is asking about, what would be the purpose of asking?”
I can’t believe you asked that question. I have always thought with the depth of your knowledge of H.P.D.’s budget that you were involved in law enforcement. Now I just don’t know. All I can say to that is think about it. If you can’t think of a reason then we will just have to disagree.
Also for the record a patrol officer already takes the liberty to ask any question he feels he needs to ask when he has pulled over a citizen. I can promise you that. Sanctuary City or Not.
As far as the Sheriff’s office is concerned when it comes to Sanctuary City discussion who cares what they do? By the time they get to the sheriff it is over as far as the Sanctuary City is concerned.
“But there are a lot of people locally that want deputies and police to arrest for the civil statute violation of immigration to deport people”
The difference is “improper entry” vs. “Unlawful presence”. Improper entry is a crime and unlawful presence is not. So how in the world are you going to know who committed improper entry vs. unlawful presence if you don’t ask them questions.
Everyone just needs to relax. If Police officers are officially allowed (they already do) to ask about a person’s legal status to determine whether there is improper entry vs. unlawful presence nothing will change. H.P.D. officers will not spend their time arresting illegals for improper entry. Even if they feel strongly about it. It is not about who they are. As a general rule the vast majority of H.P.D. patrol officers enjoy getting the criminal’s off the street (i.e. drug dealers, addicts, wife beaters, robbers, thief’s etc.) that is why they became Police Officers.
Ross,
you said…..
I am strongly opposed to HPD or HCSO going around and asking witnesses, or random folks, about their immigration status.
As to witnesses and random folks I strongly agree with you. The law is already in place that stops them from doing that. Their doesn’t need to be a “SANCTUARY CITY RULE” against it. An officer would need probable cause to ask such a question. Asking random people and witnesses would be a 4th amendment violation in my opinion.
However,
I still stand by my first statement that a police officer who has probable cause that a crime has been committed should be able to ask any question he thinks is necessary. I think that the current status of the law agrees with me.
I am out for the rest of the weekend. Have fun guys.
PK: “I still stand by my first statement that a police officer who has probable cause that a crime has been committed should be able to ask any question he thinks is necessary.”
Ans: We agree here.
PK: “I have always thought with the depth of your knowledge of H.P.D.’s budget that you were involved in law enforcement. Now I just don’t know. All I can say to that is think about it. If you can’t think of a reason then we will just have to disagree. Also for the record a patrol officer already takes the liberty to ask any question he feels he needs to ask when he has pulled over a citizen. I can promise you that. Sanctuary City or Not.”
Ans: I can tell you how many miles of roadway Public Works is responsible for but I don’t work for them, how many calls HFD runs a day but I don’t work for them, and how many libraries the city has but I don’t work for them either. My original point stands, someone not having a license isn’t probable cause that the driver is here illegally, nor is the inability to speak English (or at least a willingness to do so).
Status violations of immigration laws are generally outside the scope of a city police officer’s authority, falling under federal statute. My comment regarding HCSO, an organization that does actually deport people to ICE, was included because they have deputies that are specifically trained and certified by the feds in order to do that. The city folk, God love them, are not so empowered so immigration matters are not only outside the scope of their authority but also outside their training. That being the case, on a traffic stop at least, asking a driver if they are an illegal immigrant doesn’t further their mission of presumably enforcing traffic laws, nor are they allowed to act upon any knowledge to that end they uncover if they do ask. If they pull someone over who says, “yeah dude, I’m an illegal immigrant”, do you think they can make an arrest based on that?
The reason the city doesn’t want untrained officers delving into immigration status except under certain circumstances is that doing so scares people who then refuse to come forward as witnesses, refuse to testify, and sometimes become desperate when police are around. As a practical matter, it undermines any hopes of community policing or working with that community. Then there is the matter of racial profiling, lawsuits from those impacted, etc.
PK: “The difference is “improper entry” vs. “Unlawful presence”. Improper entry is a crime and unlawful presence is not. So how in the world are you going to know who committed improper entry vs. unlawful presence if you don’t ask them questions. H.P.D. officers will not spend their time arresting illegals for improper entry.”
Ans: Okay, if they aren’t going to arrest for either one, what does it matter? Despite calls for ending these policies, I have yet to see the state or the feds cough up any money tied to enforcement or training other than on a very small scale (Houston turned down a request to train a few officers, the result for those trained would be having to work in the jail until the county takes it over eventually).
PK: “As a general rule the vast majority of H.P.D. patrol officers enjoy getting the criminal’s off the street (i.e. drug dealers, addicts, wife beaters, robbers, thief’s etc.) that is why they became Police Officers.”
Ans: Exactly, catching criminals and helping people. If any of them feel there aren’t enough crimes to handle already and want to become ICE agents, they can apply via the USA Jobs portal. Every level of government is bipolar when it comes to this subject, from the amnesty Reagan provided millions back in the 1980’s to right wingers like Trump calling for mass deportation of ~12 million people. Your previous suggestion that everyone would band together to stop HPD from enforcing immigration laws flies in the face of a great many people expecting no less than that from them. And that would require a lot more manpower than 540 more officers (McClelland), 1200 officers (Turner), or 1500 officers (Hunt) as proposed lately.
Sanctuary city is a name given to a city in the United States that follows certain procedures that shelters illegal immigrants. These procedures can be by law (de jure) or they can be by action (de facto). The term most commonly is used for cities that do not permit municipal funds or resources to be applied in furtherance of enforcement of federal immigration laws. These cities normally do not permit police or municipal employees to inquire about one’s immigration status. The designation of Sanctuary City” has no legal meaning. (Aslap)
As a country, we need to figure out how we want to compromise and handle the issue. As long as there are better opportunities for people here than in their home countries, we’ll have people finding a way here. My suggestion that bothered someone here earlier this year was to start cutting any public benefits to those here illegally. If you start drying up the largess, people will stop coming here as much except by the legal path. That was why I said in the legislative session how the GOP wasn’t going to give up on instate tuition, the topic will continue to resurface whether it’s a thousand students or 30,000 students, based on the principle.
Paul Kubosh, you seem to be misinformed. Do you know why most persons that are caught at the border are deported back the first time?
Paul Kubosh, do you know what illegal entry is? I am shocked that you use such language considering how many undocumented persons are referred to the Kubosh law firm.
So if they stop someone for walking on the street rather than on the side walk, the police should be able to ask them, if they are here illegally or unlawfully? Do they ask everyone or do they ask only the Mexican looking people, Paul Kubosh?
It must be nice to be European looking in America, where I used to see Mexican looking people stopped and questioned as to citizenship while the European looking were waived on. You are one of those European looking, aren’t you Paul Kubosh?
I know this person who fought in Korea, our side, who lives near Roma Texas, he speaks Spanish and always had to prove he was a citizen. He happens to be my uncle. He does not travel now because of age mostly.
I know this person who fought in the Pacific who was also stopped often to prove his citizenship, or legal status, while European looking people were waived on. He had to carry his birth certificate with him to prove he was American. He was my father. His brother was next to him for almost four years. Four medals, one which is the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic-Pacific_Campaign_Medal
It must be nice Paul to be European looking in a country that has tended to favor the fair complexioned. I had to witness my father being talked down to by teenage European looking kids, because of his accent? No you didn’ know. But then people like you probably would not have bothered by the fact that a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient was denied service in Ft. Bend County, would you Paul Kubosh? Or that a WWII soldier was denied burial in his home town, only for European looking folks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Z._Longoria,_Jr.
People like Paul Kubosh want those good old days to return, where people that look Mexicans have to carry proof citizenship with them at all times. You know nothing Paul Kubosh.
Paul you must like to hang around with all those police officers that tend to believe like you? I wonder what those Mexican looking folks that refer cases, traffic, would think about that? I have met a few like that (police officers), total idiots most of them.
Paul did you know that HPD did used to ask those type of questions? Did you ever bother to ask why they did away with it?
Paul Kubosh, if you feel so strongly about asking, how about the Kubosh law firm, asking their clients their legal status? If they are not here “legally” why not refuse to represent them?
Thank you Steven Houston;-)
Clarification
Paul you must like to hang around with all those police officers that tend to believe like you? I wonder what those Mexican looking folks that refer cases, traffic, would think about that? I have met a few like that (police officers), total idiots most of them.
Police officers that think like you, the I have met.
Medal-Ft. Bend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcario_Garc%C3%ADa
Read the part where he was not only denied service, he was beaten with a bat, no one was charged, yes the good old days if you are European looking. Don’t expect me to agree to anything that is such blatant discrimination as to what you believe in.
Paul, why is it that I am a Mexican-American but you are not a British-American, or is Scotish-American? Not sure as to the Kubosh surname but it is believed to come from that area. In all probality my family has been in this country longer than yours, since the 1700s for the Barrera/Garcia family. Legally citizens since 1848 with the treaty of the Guadalupe Hidalgo, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Guadalupe_Hidalgo
So why is that for hundreds of years, I have been a Hyphenated American, and the European looking folks are not, at least now? In fact Jews can have dual citizenship and no one sees a problem with that, but Mexican looking folks will support Mexico, right Paul?
By the way that is not good to be hyphenated, Paul.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphenated_American
Even Jindal is tired of it, and he is first generation.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/239318-jindal-tired-of-the-hyphenated-americans
How do you think I feel Paul? And you want to bring back my good old days?
My apologies, Paul Kubosh, I misread your first statement. Well part of it, anyhow. You seem conflicted in your responses. So if what I wrote applies take it to heart. If it does not I am sorry. My dad always told me don’t apologize, you can’t undo the damage you have done. The moral, think, before. So you really think that police officers will not create charges to get rid of “illegals” Paul? I do sell bridges, Paul, are you interested.
MB, you’re welcome. I just think it’s fair to ask “to what end” when dealing with such issues, if a publicly paid official has no need for the information, why bother asking? I don’t believe for a second that such legislation is about police asking for information they won’t act upon, nor do hardcore Patrick supporters that I have talked with (which is a great many).